Going through (almost) every Touhou game in release order #4 - Embodiment of Scarlet Devil

[Cosmic]

And now, we've made it to the first of the Windows Touhou games! ...Yep, this sure is the first Touhou game on Windows alright.

I don't know if this is going to seem like stating the obvious or is going to make everyone on this forum hate me, but I honestly find this game to be pretty overhyped in a lot of areas. To start with, the story - Remilia has covered Gensokyo in a thick red mist so that she as a vampire can go outside in the day, and Reimu and Marisa head out to stop her, battling various members of the Scarlet Devil Mansion staff (as well as two entirely unrelated youkai) along the way. It's fairly basic, but it gets the job done, no issues here. Now, this is the part I think I'll lose a lot of you at; I do not think this game has very good characters. 

Alright, hear me out here, there are characters introduced in this game who I like. I've mentioned Cirno before as one I particularly enjoy, and Sakuya and Patchouli are another two I quite like (Patchouli admittedly more for the fact I think the "big floating magic circle" type of magic she uses is really cool than anything), but I don't think any of their best qualities are really there in their EoSD characterization. Cirno is a complete and utter non-character here compared to what she would go on to become from PoFV onwards, and most of the other characters are just kinda there as well, not really getting to express much of a personality. If you told me to name a single character trait Remilia has after I played EoSD without showing me anything else from the series, I really don't think I could. It's a shame, too, because Mystic Square and to a small extent Lotus Land Story were both able to do a good amount for their new characters with roughly the same amount of lines as the EoSD cast, so having virtually everyone here be carried by their portrayals in future games is a shame.

Beyond that, I feel like this game's soundtrack is also somewhat of a downgrade from the last two PC-98 games, although it could just be that I don't like most of the instruments used in this game. It makes sense, given that ZUN was just now getting used to using anything other than FM Synthesis to compose music, but of this game's soundtrack, Voile, the Magic Library, Lunar Clock ~ Luna Dial, and Septette for the Dead Princess are the only three songs that really stick out to me, with the rest ranging from alright to barely listenable for me, and even of the ones I just listed, Luna Dial is the only one I'd put on the same level as the best of Lotus Land Story or Mystic Square's soundtracks. This soundtrack isn't bad, mostly, I just find it extremely forgettable when compared to what came before or after it.

Despite everything I've just said, there are some things I actually do like here! First of all, I feel like this is the point where ZUN became really willing to experiment with the bullet patterns. We'd seen a lot of variety beforehand in Mystic Square, sure (Mai's spinning laser wheel thingy continues to be one of my favorite bullet patterns in the series), but this game feels like it really goes out of its way to experiment and display its characters' abilities through gameplay, in moments like Cirno freezing her bullets still and having them move in a different direction when they're un-frozen, or Sakuya being able to stop time, place bullets on the screen, and resume time, having them all start moving at once. I really love stuff like this, so it's a pleasant surprise to see it being done this early in the series. Additionally, the character art, although objectively quite bad, still has a certain charm for me that I really enjoy, even if Meiling does look a bit like she'll eat me alive.

Overall, while EoSD is responsible for the start of the Windows Touhou continuity, it's definitely a game that I respect more than I actually enjoy it. I have this idea in my head of it being one that everyone really likes, but come to think of it, I don't actually know what the general fandom perception of it is these days, so it'll be interesting to see if I get burnt at the stake for this post or if it gets met with a slightly underwhelming sense of "well, yeah, obviously".

Edited May 11, 2023 by Cosmic

[Eulogous]

On 5/11/2023 at 3:09 AM, Cosmic said:

Beyond that, I feel like this game's soundtrack is also somewhat of a downgrade from the last two PC-98 games, although it could just be that I don't like most of the instruments used in this game. It makes sense, given that ZUN was just now getting used to using anything other than FM Synthesis to compose music, but of this game's soundtrack, Voile, the Magic Library, Lunar Clock ~ Luna Dial, and Septette for the Dead Princess are the only three songs that really stick out to me, with the rest ranging from alright to barely listenable for me, and even of the ones I just listed, Luna Dial is the only one I'd put on the same level as the best of Lotus Land Story or Mystic Square's soundtracks. This soundtrack isn't bad, mostly, I just find it extremely forgettable when compared to what came before or after it.

I'm curious what you'd think of ZUN's music from the first two Seihou games, since those were made during the in-between period of PC-98 and Windows Touhou. Also, I agree that a good chunk of the ost is forgettable. Some of the remixes I've heard are good, but I never listen the the originals in my downtime.

On 5/11/2023 at 3:09 AM, Cosmic said:

Now, this is the part I think I'll lose a lot of you at; I do not think this game has very good characters. 

I think the memes and sheer amount of fan content have kept them relevant more than anything. Sakuya's later appearances in PCB, IN, and PoFV cemented her pretty well as a mainstay, as well as having a power similar to another popular time-stopping character.

On 5/11/2023 at 3:09 AM, Cosmic said:

Overall, while EoSD is responsible for the start of the Windows Touhou continuity, it's definitely a game that I respect more than I actually enjoy it. I have this idea in my head of it being one that everyone really likes, but come to think of it, I don't actually know what the general fandom perception of it is these days, so it'll be interesting to see if I get burnt at the stake for this post or if it gets met with a slightly underwhelming sense of "well, yeah, obviously".

I'm pretty sure the EoSD super hype has run its course by now. Not sure what the current fandom's pick for the best Touhou game we can't talk negatively about is. PoFV maybe?

The more I think of it, EoSD feels like a bit of a retread of LLS' Stage progression of: Path to Lake -> Lake -> Gate of Mansion -> 3 Stages in Mansion that end with a battle against the owner. Not a bad thing per se, but something I noticed.

[Cosmic]

2 hours ago, Eulogous said:

Also, I agree that a good chunk of the ost is forgettable. Some of the remixes I've heard are good, but I never listen the the originals in my downtime.

Oh there are absolutely some great remixes out there, Hisoutensoku's version of Magic Library especially is one of my favorite songs in the entire series, and if we're including doujin music, then Demetori's version of Septette for the Dead Princess is another great one, even if I do like most of their stuff to begin with.

2 hours ago, Eulogous said:

Sakuya's later appearances in PCB, IN, and PoFV cemented her pretty well as a mainstay, as well as having a power similar to another popular time-stopping character.

This is true, I do definitely think there are characters here who get better as the series goes on, they're just not very interesting in EoSD itself.

2 hours ago, Eulogous said:

The more I think of it, EoSD feels like a bit of a retread of LLS' Stage progression of: Path to Lake -> Lake -> Gate of Mansion -> 3 Stages in Mansion that end with a battle against the owner. Not a bad thing per se, but something I noticed.

This is also true actually, when I first played LLS one of my first thoughts was "hey, wait a second, this feels an awful lot like EoSD". The only difference is that Yuuka is a way better villain than Remilia 

2 hours ago, Eulogous said:

Not sure what the current fandom's pick for the best Touhou game we can't talk negatively about is. PoFV maybe?

I would have assumed it was either Imperishable Night or Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom, although I'm not sure what exactly I'm basing that on.

[Flame Sniper]

On 5/11/2023 at 5:09 AM, Cosmic said:

And now, we've made it to the first of the Windows Touhou games! ...Yep, this sure is the first Touhou game on Windows alright.

I don't know if this is going to seem like stating the obvious or is going to make everyone on this forum hate me, but I honestly find this game to be pretty overhyped in a lot of areas.

I also find EoSD to be underwhelming. By no means it's a bad game, it's very fun to play. 
 

 

On 5/11/2023 at 5:09 AM, Cosmic said:

Beyond that, I feel like this game's soundtrack is also somewhat of a downgrade from the last two PC-98 games, although it could just be that I don't like most of the instruments used in this game. It makes sense, given that ZUN was just now getting used to using anything other than FM Synthesis to compose music, but of this game's soundtrack, Voile, the Magic Library, Lunar Clock ~ Luna Dial, and Septette for the Dead Princess are the only three songs that really stick out to me, with the rest ranging from alright to barely listenable for me, and even of the ones I just listed, Luna Dial is the only one I'd put on the same level as the best of Lotus Land Story or Mystic Square's soundtracks. This soundtrack isn't bad, mostly, I just find it extremely forgettable when compared to what came before or after it.

All the downgrades present when comparing PC98 to Windows games (especially EoSD) have one likely cause: Development Hell
If i recall correctly, ZUN was done with Touhou after Mystic Square, but he decided to continue making games. Don't underestimate the jump from PC98 to Windows, a lot of things are different between those two environments. Also wasn't Amusement Makers absent from the development of this game? 
He had to: 
Learn Windows
Rebuilt the game engine
Relearn programming using the tools Windows offers 
Figure out how to make music in a format friendly to Windows (giving a MIDI didn't work as well as PC98 due to Windows machines having more advanced audio systems, meaning he had to learn how to use a Music Workstation) 
And all the work he normally does when making Touhou. 

 

 

On 5/11/2023 at 5:09 AM, Cosmic said:

Alright, hear me out here, there are characters introduced in this game who I like. I've mentioned Cirno before as one I particularly enjoy, and Sakuya and Patchouli are another two I quite like (Patchouli admittedly more for the fact I think the "big floating magic circle" type of magic she uses is really cool than anything), but I don't think any of their best qualities are really there in their EoSD characterization. Cirno is a complete and utter non-character here compared to what she would go on to become from PoFV onwards, and most of the other characters are just kinda there as well, not really getting to express much of a personality. If you told me to name a single character trait Remilia has after I played EoSD without showing me anything else from the series, I really don't think I could. It's a shame, too, because Mystic Square and to a small extent Lotus Land Story were both able to do a good amount for their new characters with roughly the same amount of lines as the EoSD cast, so having virtually everyone here be carried by their portrayals in future games is a shame.

I think ZUN experimented with storytelling differently in this game. All the characters (outside Rumia and mid stage bosses) tell who they are thanks to their bullet patterns and boss music.
You kinda understand that Cirno is not the brightest fairy thanks to her silly boss music and patterns that at first appear intimidating but are easy to dodge. But someone like Meiling, who's a martial artist, fires straight forward attacks (like punches) that require almost instinctive dodging or Patchouli flexing her magical skills changing her patterns depending on the character of choice. 
At least the patterns/music make up for the lack of good storytelling. 

 

 

On 5/11/2023 at 5:09 AM, Cosmic said:

Beyond that, I feel like this game's soundtrack is also somewhat of a downgrade from the last two PC-98 games, although it could just be that I don't like most of the instruments used in this game. It makes sense, given that ZUN was just now getting used to using anything other than FM Synthesis to compose music, but of this game's soundtrack, Voile, the Magic Library, Lunar Clock ~ Luna Dial, and Septette for the Dead Princess are the only three songs that really stick out to me, with the rest ranging from alright to barely listenable for me, and even of the ones I just listed, Luna Dial is the only one I'd put on the same level as the best of Lotus Land Story or Mystic Square's soundtracks. This soundtrack isn't bad, mostly, I just find it extremely forgettable when compared to what came before or after it.

If you can/like, play EoSD with either the MIDIs (ZUN made a last moment decision and he made normal audio files instead) or using a remastered version of the OST (KR Palto made the best in my opinion faithful remaster/remix). 
It gives the songs more depth in their sound and gives the game a more "complete" feeling. 

In Thcrap you can download a patch with the MIDIs playing as audio files (made by Romantique Tp on the same hardware as ZUN) with the name "bgm_sc88pro" or use the versions made by KR Palto by following his instructions on the playlist with his remasters. 
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLT2BXm3V6TlYHBE3cX5OQgjGsw8qyX1T2 

One more thing! You can hear some of the PC98 songs with actual instruments by checking out Romantique Tp playing official files ZUN made for the SC-88 Pro. It's pretty crazy. 
https://www.youtube.com/@RomantiqueTp 

 

[Cosmic]

9 hours ago, Pepi said:

All the downgrades present when comparing PC98 to Windows games (especially EoSD) have one likely cause: Development Hell
If i recall correctly, ZUN was done with Touhou after Mystic Square, but he decided to continue making games. Don't underestimate the jump from PC98 to Windows, a lot of things are different between those two environments. Also wasn't Amusement Makers absent from the development of this game? 
He had to: 
Learn Windows
Rebuilt the game engine
Relearn programming using the tools Windows offers 
Figure out how to make music in a format friendly to Windows (giving a MIDI didn't work as well as PC98 due to Windows machines having more advanced audio systems, meaning he had to learn how to use a Music Workstation) 
And all the work he normally does when making Touhou. 

Wouldn't surprise me, the music in PCB is great so I figured it was something like that.

 

9 hours ago, Pepi said:

I think ZUN experimented with storytelling differently in this game. All the characters (outside Rumia and mid stage bosses) tell who they are thanks to their bullet patterns and boss music.
You kinda understand that Cirno is not the brightest fairy thanks to her silly boss music and patterns that at first appear intimidating but are easy to dodge. But someone like Meiling, who's a martial artist, fires straight forward attacks (like punches) that require almost instinctive dodging or Patchouli flexing her magical skills changing her patterns depending on the character of choice. 
At least the patterns/music make up for the lack of good storytelling. 

This is true! However there are countless characters later on in the series who can do this as well as having actual expressive dialogue, so I still count this as a point against EoSD.

 

9 hours ago, Pepi said:

One more thing! You can hear some of the PC98 songs with actual instruments by checking out Romantique Tp playing official files ZUN made for the SC-88 Pro. It's pretty crazy. 
https://www.youtube.com/@RomantiqueTp 

Sounds interesting, I'll be sure to give it a look later!