Fanservice in Touhou, at least as much as I have seen yet

[CountVonNumenor]

Just as I was saying earlier in Tenkk'o thread, I was gonna start this little talk on a theme usually associated with Japanese (and sometimes Western too) media: fanservice.

Until now, I knew that official Touhou material has the reputation of being devoid of any fan service stuff, be it of any kind. ZUN designs do not go into horny zone with barely dressed characters (kind of a trope in media by now) or very pronounced body proportions (with some exceptions, but those are extremely mild like with Urumi). Plus, when it comes to fanservice in terms of character representation, I am not too sure what to mention. I know there have been points when Sakuya, Aya, Sanae and Sumireko (which for the time brought each the nickname of "ZUN's girlfriend" among fans) have been more heavily featured in official material, but that seems to have been more of a ZUN decision. I have heard our favorite beer-enjoying creator treats his characters like his children, and therefore does not want to put them in any form of...inadequate form. Which is something to be respected, at least in my opinion. 

There have been some interesting moment with canon material though. Probably the one I remember best right now is in relation to official Yuugi art. Especially her portrayal in that very revealing kimono from 13.5, and then the (unofficial) flyer done by alphes (even if the kimono also appears in 17.5).  do not really have a problem with it, I just find it as an interesting depart from the classic "try to hide as much skin as possible" as seen in other character's design. 

To quote the wiki on this situation:

Quote

 

• Unlike ZUN, it's been shown that alphes has a preference for drawing characters with some curves (as can be seen often on the front page of Tasofro's website). For example, in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, Suika Ibuki's chest seems to be flat and Komachi Onozuka's seems to be large, with ZUN's guidelines presumably keeping it all in check. This may be a case of alphes being able to indulge in their preference with official art.
• Yuugi Hoshiguma's background cameo sprite in Hopeless Masquerade is shown wearing a kimono outfit that seems to be another indication of alphes adding their preferences to Touhou Project art (the outfit was first used on an unofficial Subterranean Animism promotional flyer, shown at right, which was also drawn by alphes).

 

 

Also the swimwear outfit for Reimu, Marisa and Remilia from Silent Sinner in Blue exist, but these are usually not really brought up. Or Nue liking her short dress and thigh-highs, but for this one I admit that I like it, so I will let it pass (guilty...)

 

 

Alright, without any other clear example in mind for canon instances, time to move to fanon. I will try to keep this short, but most likely will fail on the way and start rambling about Memories of Phantasm...

So, since fandom is fandom, I can perfectly understand people wanting to create stories their own way, and have characters used in order to satisfy their imagination. And since here we have all the kinds of fanservice, I will just list a few I stumbled upon since I got into this series:

- basically any NSFW art, be it just posing or doing...naughty stuff

Touhou Lost Word
- I mean yeah, it is a gacha game; of course you will have an isekai character get to Gensokyo and somehow be able through power of plot to help solve the incidents;
- I was surprised though to see the MC (might nickname her "Lossie" in the future, since the name was used in the game in the absence of an actual name, and people turned it into a running gag) be a girl to begin with, and not just turn this game into her getting a harem;
- I think authors tried give her a bit of personality, and turn her basically into a Sakuya simp (not officially admitted, but general opinion among players);
- and speaking of Sakuya; it seems like the developers like her a lot, as she has appeared in most of the events until now
- as for other kinds of fanservice, art has not gone over the top (with a few exceptions)

Touhou Memories of Phantasm/Fantasy Kaleidoscope
- usually, the go-to (fan-made) anime when people ask about Touhou animations; I personally like the drawing style of Manpukujinja
- I have only watched the first 7 episodes of the anime, and still have 10 more to go, but until then I got some stuff to mention; so..
- Sanae; if Lost Word likes bringing in Sakuya a lot, MoP really likes Sanae; she has been around since first episode, and also appeared in a lot of moments where she would chronologically not make sense (like during the IN and PoFV arcs)
- the intro for EoSD arc (Episodes 2-4): what can I say other than hot springs scene
- Episode 3: literally the first 3 minutes are just Yukari, Ran and Chen at the hot springs; lots of convenient censoring via steam clouds or water reflections; however, just like in the intro mention, intimate parts can still be seen, even if not fully drawn (reminds me of a very weird thing that if you draw bare boobs, but do not draw the nipples, the drawing all of sudden becomes safe for work - don't ask me why, ask those who are making the ratings)
- I do not know how much does this count as fan service, but the Hisoutensoku episode can count as such; especially with picking Cirno's story (out of al available from the game), and I still laugh reading comments about the final scene with Cirno and Dayiousei (everybody was basically like "come on, kiss already" at how the scene got played out)
- not something I have watched yet, but I know from a few spoiler videos about the way Kaguya is introduced in the story; the first time we meet her, it is literally a scene of her bathing

Man, maybe I really should finish watching MoP, then make a proper review for each of the episodes. But that will most likely take a while... Or maybe I can do it these days, but only based on the Episodes 1-7. Hmmm...


Anyway, sorry for this thread getting all over the place. What do you think on the topic of fanservice, an what would you like too add, correct or develop based on my starting point? Anything is welcome. 

[Isaac]

Hey again, you mentioned some good points about the fanservice in certain works. It is interesting how Yuugi and others have appeared more in different outfits even though ZUN hasn't designed them himself. I think this type of fanservice is great if it suits the characters.

I'm not a huge fan of it unless it involves certain characters like you said with Ran and Yukari in fantasy kaleidoscope, but even those scenes can be something.

Speaking about that, you're right about Sanae getting a lot of screentime, she seems to get most of the fanservice if you have seen the recent episodes. It is weird why those intimate parts are shown in the opening and it's still safe even though they are exposed. I'm sure that the end of SA arc will have fanservice for everyone just like in that opening. Not sure how censored it would be but I'm just not a fan of this type of fanservice.

As for LostWord, I'm mostly fine with everything apart from a few. I feel like Danmaku Kagura has slightly more fanservice compared to others as seen with some artwork.

I would like to know what other people think about this too.

[CountVonNumenor]

33 minutes ago, Isaac said:

I feel like Danmaku Kagura has slightly more fanservice compared to others as seen with some artwork.

I have seen some of the artwork used in Danmaku Kagura. It looks nice, but indeed, there's some fanservice in it. For me, probably the most blatant exam seen is the Murasa artwork card. I think you know the one. The one with the wet Murasa, where the wet clothes are becoming very revealing. How did I get to know about that artwork without playing the game? Well, BeatMARIO was playing DanKagu in a livestream, and featured that artwork in the thumbnail - the purpose in that stream was to farm and get that specific card, as it was newly introduced. 

As for the artwork itself, I did manage to trace it eventually to the original. All I can say is that it looks even more revealing...and transparent in the original, despite Murasa being just as wet, and with all the clothes on. 

Anyway, let's see what anyone else has to add. 

[Darksymphony777]

Probably the most hilarious course of fan service comes from lost word where they give patchouli a bubble butt then say that she wear a "loosely fitting lilac dress"

 

 

Loosely fitting lilac dress

 

Visible confusion still nice though but confused nonetheless

 

 

Also I think it fits yuugi to wear a kimono but that's just me

[Agus Mandala]

Touhou used to be non NSFW art because original art looks bad (the ZUN one). But somehow it managed to become the top 5 NSFW art on the Internet, so my opinion is NSFW art in Touhou became the stamp, so it's not Touhou if it doesn't had thousands of NSFW arts

[Isaac]

17 minutes ago, Agus Mandala said:

Touhou used to be non NSFW art because original art looks bad (the ZUN one). But somehow it managed to become the top 5 NSFW art on the Internet, so my opinion is NSFW art in Touhou became the stamp, so it's not Touhou if it doesn't had thousands of NSFW arts

I get what you mean. There is so much around it's hard to avoid even if I don't want to see any of that myself.

The fandom made those artwork rise since everyone has the freedom to make anything with the series.

 

[Isaac]

1 hour ago, Darksymphony777 said:

Also I think it fits yuugi to wear a kimono but that's just me

Yuugi is too cool with her kimono!

[Gou the frog]

6 hours ago, Isaac said:

Yuugi is too cool with her kimono!

She is too badass with her sake and kimono.

Suika might also work. 

[CountVonNumenor]

8 hours ago, Darksymphony777 said:

Probably the most hilarious course of fan service comes from lost word where they give patchouli a bubble butt then say that she wear a "loosely fitting lilac dress"

Oh yeah, they also did something very similar with Yorihime too. Her butt shape is very much visible through the romper/dress

Right now, some other more revealing designs I can think if from the game are Meiling and Kasen with their dresses split so high, therefore revealing a great portion of the thighs. Another obvious one would be Yukari's standard outfit, which exposes very much of the cleavage, and just combines with the overall large boobs she was given by the artist. 

 

8 hours ago, Agus Mandala said:

Touhou used to be non NSFW art because original art looks bad (the ZUN one). But somehow it managed to become the top 5 NSFW art on the Internet, so my opinion is NSFW art in Touhou became the stamp, so it's not Touhou if it doesn't had thousands of NSFW arts

I think I have a bit of theory on this one. Based on what I know, there's a bit of a psychological process through which the ore you are denied something, the more you you will be craving it. Therefore, since Touhou has always been extremely safe for work with its art, ZUN's illustrations look most of the time like dolls, and there is no character with "special features" or clothes that would make you think "this is totally not NSFW, but somehow it is family-friendly" (aka your run of the mill anime/gacha game character whose clothes cover like only 5% of the body, just enough to not see exactly the intimate parts), a desire to create lewd fanservice of them will become higher. Or how TVtropes likes to put it (gonna paraphrase): the more innocent the original thing looks like, the greater the pleasure and desire to lewd it. And so, fanservice is born, be it just over-sexualization of characters or outright smut.


 

8 hours ago, Isaac said:

Yuugi is too cool with her kimono!

Yeah, that kimono is indeed a nice design. Only thing is it exposes a bit too much of the "rack" to any other canon design but Urumi and her bra (Urumi in herself is entire case study to be made), and makes me feel as if Yuugi is wearing nothing else beneath the kimono (makes sense in a way, since we are talking about pre-industrial Japan). Just one wrong wind blow, and the whole thing goes back to Eve. It is interesting, because in the early games (at least Touhou 6-9), characters seemed to be wearing more old school underwear, like with undershirts and bloomers. Which made for some interesting designs. But more on the topic of bloomers and other clothing articles, I have mentioned in this thread 

To get exactly the relevant parts:

Quote

• One example in regards to some confusion I've had (and still have) is Youmu. She wear her sleeveless green jacket and skirt, and beneath that what I thought to be a simple white shirt. I was surprised to find out the thing is not a shirt, but actually an undershirt, or "maiou" as we call it in Romanian (the word comes from the French "maillot"). The thing about "maiou" (maiouri for plural form) is an underwear, usually not visible through the clothes you wear above. So in general, some of the 2hus just wear some underwear over which comes a jacket or something of sorts for their top half?
• Then there are other curiosities I've noticed, like the use of bloomers in the early Windows games (which seem to have later disappeared with some exceptions like Mayumi) or Nue, which is a whole different discussion with her short dress and thigh-highs/the zettai ryouiki trope. Combined with the first point, how does underwear and other clothing accessories that are not usually visible work like given the setting of Gensokyo and tendency towards the older style of clothing characters opt for?

However, even if I talked so much about the alphes kimono, one has to remember Yuugi's original design in itself has an interesting feature - the semi (or outright) transparent skirt she was given by ZUN in Touhou 11. That sure does not really get too much attention, mostly being overshadowed by the kimono. Depending on the artist, that skirt has different degrees of transparency. 

 

Touhou 11 Yuugi (ZUN art)

 

Yuugi illustration from Symposium of Post-Mysticism 



And last but not least, I have found the swimsuit outfits from Silent Sinner in Blue. These are featured in Chapter 21. Remember, these are canon.

For Reimu

Marisa

Remilia

[Darksymphony777]

43 minutes ago, CountVonNumenor said:

Oh yeah, they also did something very similar with Yorihime too. Her butt shape is very much visible through the romper/dress

Yes but unlike yorihime they didn't try and make it dumb by drawing attention to it with flavor text....at least from I know, unlike patchouli

 

43 minutes ago, CountVonNumenor said:

Yeah, that kimono is indeed a nice design. Only thing is it exposes a bit too much of the "rack" to any other canon design

Yeah but I think yuugi is the one character that works with, she invokes call girl vibes and showing off her bust better portrays it.

 

 

Also I love how that manga artist gives remilia a bigger bust than reimu for some odd reason

[CountVonNumenor]

2 minutes ago, Darksymphony777 said:

Yes but unlike yorihime they didn't try and make it dumb by drawing attention to it with flavor text....at least from I know, unlike patchouli

 

Yeah but I think yuugi is the one character that works with, she invokes call girl vibes and showing off her bust better portrays it

Both of them very good points. Fair enough
I have mostly mentioned Yorihime since she was the other one who got that design decision. But indeed, Patchouli takes the cake with the description

[Gou the frog]

If we're talking about fashion, we can't leave Meiling out of it can we?

She can be seen wearing white pants in Hisoutensoku

Rarely in Fanon can she be seen with her pants or pantis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But in Perfect Memento In Strict Sense

Nothing at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would really appreciate your take in Meiling wearing pants or not.

[buskerdog]

I can't remember the source, but Meiling without trousers that's what they're called where I come from OK was confirmed by ZUN, rather recently I believe, to be how she actually appears originally is EoSD (you just can't see it because the portrait stops above the waist), this explains why she also appears like that in the manga, ZUN would have asked for her to be drawn like that. As for the fighting games, it's not unheard of for Tasofro to slightly change a character's design based on their own perceptions (something I mentioned previously about Patchouli). I can think of 3 possible reasons they chose give Meiling trousers in those games:

-They may have simply not known, and just went with it because that's how they thought she should look (like what happened with Patchouli)

-They could have done it due to the more acrobatic nature of the game, so that her decency is better covered (probably the first time a Japanese developer has ever done this lol)

-Possibly they did it because they found it easier to animate.

[Isaac]

3 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

However, even if I talked so much about the alphes kimono, one has to remember Yuugi's original design in itself has an interesting feature - the semi (or outright) transparent skirt she was given by ZUN in Touhou 11. That sure does not really get too much attention, mostly being overshadowed by the kimono. Depending on the artist, that skirt has different degrees of transparency. 

I love the athletic design that ZUN used for Yuugi and her original transparent skirt makes her more unique. As Darksymphony777 mentioned, she totally suits the 'showing off' look as an oni. 

 

13 minutes ago, Gou the frog said:

If we're talking about fashion, we can't leave Meiling out of it can we?

She can be seen wearing white pants in Hisoutensoku

I think she looks great with the white pants and there should be more designs with that! I would say the chinese dress is more iconic for her though.

[buskerdog]

3 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

Just one wrong wind blow, and the whole thing goes back to Eve.

As others have said, I think the loose kimono works well for Yuugi. And besides, this is the person who can fight without spilling a single drop of sake form her dish, I really don't think this would be a problem for her.

Also, context! Yuugi is at a hot spring wearing those clothes, and doesn't appear anywhere else with them. It makes sense for her to not be wearing much in that context. I'm not trying to argue that means it doesn't count as fanservice, though. Still, I don't even think Yuugi's kimono is even that "fanservice-ey to begin with, but it is closer to that than other official art

I'm surprised no-one's talked about Byakuren's idle animation in fighting games yet...

[Gou the frog]

6 minutes ago, Isaac said:

I think she looks great with the white pants and there should be more designs with that! I would say the chinese dress is more iconic for her though.

I definitely agree with you right here. She have a cool factor with the white pants but the chinese dress is more iconic just like Yuugi.

10 minutes ago, buskerdog said:

I can't remember the source, but Meiling without trousers that's what they're called where I come from OK was confirmed by ZUN, rather recently I believe, to be how she actually appears originally is EoSD (you just can't see it because the portrait stops above the waist), this explains why she also appears like that in the manga, ZUN would have asked for her to be drawn like that. As for the fighting games, it's not unheard of for Tasofro to slightly change a character's design based on their own perceptions (something I mentioned previously about Patchouli). I can think of 3 possible reasons they chose give Meiling trousers in those games:

-They may have simply not known, and just went with it because that's how they thought she should look (like what happened with Patchouli)

-They could have done it due to the more acrobatic nature of the game, so that her decency is better covered (probably the first time a Japanese developer has ever done this lol)

-Possibly they did it because they found it easier to animate.

Those are all very fair points. Pardon me for my lack of knowledge. 1 & 3 seems logical to me.

 

This time, I'll be bringing frills on the table. So, which character do you think have the best frills design. 

I'll choose Iku.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

16 minutes ago, buskerdog said:

I'm surprised no-one's talked about Byakuren's idle animation in fighting games yet...

Yeah, I absolutely forgot about Byakuren and her biker suit from the spin-offs. Which was made even more fanservice-y in Lost Word if it was not already enough in the official material. 

[CountVonNumenor]

52 minutes ago, Gou the frog said:

I would really appreciate your take in Meiling wearing pants or not

To be honest, I was very confused about the matter whether Meiling wears pants or not for a while, since in some of the official art (like the Hisoutesoku sprite) she does, whereas in other official art (like your second illustration), she doesn't. 

 

Quote

I'm not trying to argue that means it doesn't count as fanservice, though. Still, I don't even think Yuugi's kimono is even that "fanservice-ey to begin with, but it is closer to that than other official art

Indeed, it is just closer to fanservice, at least relatively when compared to ZUN's other designs, where it seems like he is trying to add as many clothes and accessories and possible to cover the skin

[CountVonNumenor]

14 hours ago, Isaac said:

I'm sure that the end of SA arc will have fanservice for everyone just like in that opening. Not sure how censored it would be but I'm just not a fan of this type of fanservice.

if only there will be a SA story arc. MoP has been put to an undefined halt after Episode 17, and it will only come back once the studiu will get again the funds for continuing work. But if we are still here, when speaking about fanservice, NSFW and things like Memories of Phantasm and some...specific scenes. Sometimes, I feel like Japan just exists in a totally different realm from the rest of the world.

To quote from the US Federal Law: 

Quote

 In addition, Section 1466A of Title 18, United State Code, makes it illegal for any person to knowingly produce, distribute, receive, or possess with intent to transfer or distribute visual representations, such as drawings, cartoons, or paintings that appear to depict minors engaged in sexually explicit conduct and are deemed obscene.  This statute offers an alternative 2-pronged test for obscenity with a lower threshold than the Miller test.  The matter involving minors can be deemed obscene if it (i) depicts an image that is, or appears to be a minor engaged in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse and (ii) if the image lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.  A first time offender convicted under this statute faces fines and at least 5 years to a maximum of 20 years in prison.

Also from Article 372 of Romanian Penal Code: 

Quote

Art. 372 Pornografia infantilă (1) Producerea, expunerea sau distribuirea, în orice mod, precum şi deţinerea în vederea expunerii sau distribuirii de materiale pornografice cu minori, se pedepseşte cu închisoare de la 6 luni la 3 ani. (2) Dacă faptele prevăzute în alineatul precedent au fost săvârşite printr-un sistem informatic sau alt mijloc de stocare a datelor informatice, pedeapsa este închisoarea de la unu la 5 ani. (3) Prin materiale pornografice cu minori se înţelege orice material care prezintă un minor având un comportament sexual explicit sau care, deşi nu prezintă o persoană reală, simulează, în mod credibil, un minor având un astfel de comportament.

Does it work the same in Japan, or a breach has been found there? We have the decency rule of "at least do not draw lewd fanservice of children", but they still seem to be doing it nonetheless. I mean we, the westerners, do it too in regards to comics and cartoons, but to a lesser extent. And I see the US section also refers to "such as drawings, cartoons or paintings". Technically, that would make a lot of the stuff done by Japanese artists illegal to watch in the USA, especially when it seems like some of the Touhou community artists seem to expertise themselves in drawing children smut. And Memories of Phantasm would not only get deleted from YouTube, but also get outright banned just for the opening sequence of the EoSD arc as there are multiple nude minor-looking characters. And the Police does not accept the "but officer, she is actually 495 years old" excuse. 

Sorry for myself getting so heated right now. I basically just used my early experience of research as future political scientist and work with official regulations in order to make analysis. I really wonder what you have to add on this matter. 

[Gou the frog]

11 minutes ago, CountVonNumenor said:

To be honest, I was very confused about the matter whether Meiling wears pants or not for a while, since in some of the official art (like the Hisoutesoku sprite) she does, whereas in other official art (like your second illustration), she doesn't. 

For me, I think she doesn't wear pants most of the time. For the other half, I believe she just wears it when she feels like it. She may wear pants on her duty. My own head cannon is 60% no pants & 40% pants for the time being. 

 

37 minutes ago, buskerdog said:

I'm surprised no-one's talked about Byakuren's idle animation in fighting games yet...

Oh, that biker suit! That actually speaks for itself I can't believe I miss that. As VonNumenor said it makes it even more fanservice-y in Lost Word and in official material itself. 

 

[Isaac]

4 minutes ago, CountVonNumenor said:

if only there will be a SA story arc. MoP has been put to an undefined halt after Episode 17, and it will only come back once the studiu will get again the funds for continuing work. But if we are still here, when speaking about fanservice, NSFW and things like Memories of Phantasm and some...specific scenes. Sometimes, I feel like Japan just exists in a totally different realm from the rest of the world.

I heard that fantasy kaleidoscope was taking a break too. I have a feeling they will be able to get the funds to continue, but we'll see if they adapt the SA arc.

Regarding japan and nsfw, it is uncomfortable for me whenever there is a 'minor looking' character being sexualised regardless of the age. I know there are a lot of different opinions for this and its hard to talk about, especially on social media. 

[Gou the frog]

5 minutes ago, CountVonNumenor said:

Sometimes, I feel like Japan just exists in a totally different realm from the rest of the world.

It does feel like it sometime. 

When I first joined Touhou which was not long ago. I asked myself why are most of the characters with skirt. Sure, the design are cool. My former self did not understand it even now. Maybe that's why there's a running gag in the community that  "Pants" wearing Characters are so iconic.

13 minutes ago, CountVonNumenor said:

Sorry for myself getting so heated right now. I basically just used my early experience of research as future political scientist and work with official regulations in order to make analysis. I really wonder what you have to add on this matter. 

No worries, I also get myself heated by thinking about those things and properly explaining it to my sister. The analysis was pretty decent.

[Darksymphony777]

11 minutes ago, Gou the frog said:

Maybe that's why there's a running gag in the community that  "Pants" wearing Characters are so iconic.

Mokou: hey wriggle

 

Wriggle: yeah

 

Mokou: you ever wonder why we're the only people in gensokyo who wear pants

 

Wriggle:.....huh I never noticed

 

 

I can't remember anyone else

[Gou the frog]

4 minutes ago, Isaac said:

I heard that fantasy kaleidoscope was taking a break too. I have a feeling they will be able to get the funds to continue, but we'll see if they adapt the SA arc.

I hope so too. Then we can properly discuss about it creating a lot more interesting picks.

 

6 minutes ago, Isaac said:

Regarding japan and nsfw, it is uncomfortable for me whenever there is a 'minor looking' character being sexualised regardless of the age. I know there are a lot of different opinions for this and its hard to talk about, especially on social media. 

Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm not going to accept the fact the the 'minor looking' character are 1000 years old, Thus, it's legal.

They still look like minor, often acts like minor so, keep that kind of thing away from me.

I shall be quite honest with you all. Even if I go to the doujinshis for the "naughty" stuff. I have a fair bit of decency to avoid "minors art." Granted, I still have to meet the Yama for that kind of stuff.

I'm tired so, I'll be hitting the bed. Gents and ladies have a fair good night.

[Isaac]

1 hour ago, buskerdog said:

As others have said, I think the loose kimono works well for Yuugi. And besides, this is the person who can fight without spilling a single drop of sake form her dish, I really don't think this would be a problem for her.

I'm surprised no-one's talked about Byakuren's idle animation in fighting games yet...

Completely agree there about Yuugi, since the kimono suits her and the place she stays.

Byakuren's biker outfit is another type of fanservice I'm fine with even if its hardly related. This is probably cause I'm just a fan of the designs.